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November Update

Posted by Arantor on November 04, 2013, 06:27:18 PM

So, it's been a few weeks since I last wrote anything in here, and I want to give an update as to where things have been going lately.

As ever, anyone who checks our Github will probably have already seen some of the changes we've done - for those who haven't, https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1 is where it's all happening.

First up, as you can imagine the first part of October was spent in dealing with the security issues reported to us, and which lead to 1.1.19 and 2.0.6 being released. That took a fair amount of time to get sorted, as you can imagine, but we're done on that score now.

So, changes in SMF 2.1 itself:
* A makeover to the moderation center - we decided to make it a bit more usable; the 'Latest from SMF' block was unlikely to be useful to most of the people in the mod centre, and mod notes being hidden by default was a mess given the fact that it's probably the most useful feature in the moderation centre! Suki put in a lot of time cleaning it up and adding extra little gadgets, I won't give you all the details, I'll let you explore that for yourself, but a screenshot is attached of the mod centre as it stands now.

* Some of the help popups in the admin area got reworded and made more useful.

* Myriad bugs got fixed (it's all in the log, don't really want to drag through all of them)

* Likes are currently being added (still a WIP), screenshot is attached. Please note that we deliberately aren't including names of people who liked a post, partly because that fits in with the minimalism aspect of the theme but much more importantly, the way we're doing it uses far fewer queries.

* Sent messages are automatically and always saved to your 'sent items', rather than having to enable it or to configure it to do so.

* Some of the images in the theme were converted into image sprites. More to do yet though.

* Admin panel overhaul...

I want to take some time to explain this one, because it's a big thing.

Firstly, Core Features. Many of you who've read some of my topics know the hate/hate relationship I have with this concept. I'm fine with the concept of turning off features that you're not using, or even having to turn them on if you do want them.

Except having a page of items whose sole thing in common is that they're all things that can be turned on/off is unintuitive, especially because these things don't tend to come up in searches. The net result is you had items that were well known to be in SMF but no-one could find them because you had to go to an unrelated page to enable them.

So we did away with all that - and in some ways it was a shame to wave goodbye to the code in question because the changes in 2.1 did make some great usability improvements to it compared to how it was done in 2.0, but honestly not having it makes everything easier to find.

On that note, I know for some time there has been a huge debate on the sidebar vs the menu, over the usability and practicality of each, and in the end we have removed the sidebar. There are issues most people don't realise that come up (translation issues, some usability issues that cannot be meaningfully corrected without rewriting good chunks of the admin, moderation and profile code), and in the end having two rather different ways to do the same thing just isn't particularly clever.

There is, in hindsight, one aspect to having the sidebar that the menu doesn't give you, a sense of discoverability, being able to see everything that's there in a differently structured way, and so I did something I've done before, based on OS X System Preferences, cPanel and other systems. Screenshot attached, you can't miss it.

There are a variety of other changes made to the admin panel (and there's probably more I'm forgetting):
* Configuration > Server Settings has been moved to Maintenance > Server Settings (you're not generally supposed to be touching!)
* Items are always displayed even if they are not enabled; items that are disabled are shown greyed out.
* Configuration > Security and Moderation no longer exists; the warning system (formerly Security and Moderation > Moderation) is now Members > Warnings, anti-spam (formerly Sec & Mod > Anti Spam) is now simply Configuration > Anti Spam, and the general security stuff (Sec & Mod > General) is now under Maintenance > Server Settings > Security. The idea, of course, is to push all the most-used stuff further up the page.
* Reports is always on, cannot be 'disabled' like it used to be. There was no benefit in disabling it.
* Integration Hooks is always on, now under Maintenance > Forum Maintenance.
* The moderation, admin and profile-edit logs can be individually enabled/disabled, from Maintenance > Logs > Log Settings (this page replaces the old Log Pruning page), and for new installs, the moderation and admin logs (only) will be on by default.
* Search Engine Tracking is no longer under the Members menu but now in the Forum menu.
* Forum > Drafts has been moved under Forum > Posts and Topics.

Anyway, that's all from me for now... back to getting likes finished, I guess... ;)

Comments

Irisado on November 04, 2013, 06:32:49 PM said
Fantastic work all round there.  Thank you for the update.

The changes to the moderation centre are particular beneficial to me, and the overhaul of other areas mentioned is also welcome.

Thank you for the detailed post.
Antes on November 04, 2013, 06:34:56 PM said
Awesome post !
margarett on November 04, 2013, 06:35:45 PM said
Nice one, devs! Almost time to replace that "Alpha" with the "B" word, hey? :)
Chalky on November 04, 2013, 06:37:26 PM said
It's getting exciting now!  Thanks for the update  :D
Arantor on November 04, 2013, 06:37:56 PM said
Nice one, devs! Almost time to replace that "Alpha" with the "B" word, hey? :)

We're getting there, there's a few things to do yet before we bring out the dreaded B word. ;)
ApplianceJunk on November 04, 2013, 07:10:32 PM said
Thanks!
mashby on November 04, 2013, 07:15:24 PM said
Myriad and Beer in the same topic. I love it...looks great so far! :)
SoLoGHoST on November 04, 2013, 08:19:51 PM said
Congrats.  Sounds promising.  And if users want a sidebar in the admin, I'm sure someone will make a mod for it.
Arantor on November 04, 2013, 08:23:39 PM said
While yes, it would be possible to make a mod out of it, I really wouldn't encourage them to do so. It wasn't removed lightly in the first place.
SoLoGHoST on November 04, 2013, 09:01:10 PM said
Well, I kinda got attached a little cause it reminded me of the early days of phpBB.  I haven't see the newer days, but the early days of phpBB, my first actual forum software installed and was owner of www.acroaddicts.com.  Those were the days!
CountryLady on November 05, 2013, 01:05:39 AM said
Wow, lots of good news in this update, Arantor. I really appreciate your ability to give us details without bogging us down, or talking over our heads.

Many "Thanks!" to Arantor, to all the Devs, and the whole SMF Team for continuing their wonderful work on SMF. Great Job~!
Colin on November 05, 2013, 01:13:29 AM said
Awesome stuff! Thank you.
shadow82x on November 05, 2013, 01:14:54 AM said
Lots of thanks to the dev team who have really been pushing through development lately. :)
Dzonny on November 05, 2013, 04:37:11 AM said
Thanks devs! :)
Kindred on November 05, 2013, 08:50:06 AM said
Nice!


I blew away my previous alpha test install and have this version running on my test site, if anyone wants to try it.
(If I know who you are, I may be willing to make you mods or possibly admins to test deeper features)

http://test2.turtleshellprod.com
kat on November 05, 2013, 12:40:01 PM said
admin_panel_revamp

Ricky. on November 05, 2013, 01:01:55 PM said
Very nice, I am already missing LIKE button here :)
iMiKK on November 05, 2013, 05:19:57 PM said
I love that "Likes" has been added to the core. :)
ApplianceJunk on November 05, 2013, 06:34:36 PM said
Wow, lots of good news in this update, Arantor. I really appreciate your ability to give us details without bogging us down, or talking over our heads.

Many "Thanks!" to Arantor, to all the Devs, and the whole SMF Team for continuing their wonderful work on SMF. Great Job~!

It's good to see Arantor on the SMF Team. :D
Gargoyle on November 05, 2013, 07:42:15 PM said
Make it ALL like OS X ... LOL!!!

LOOKING REAL GOOD!!!
SoLoGHoST on November 05, 2013, 07:55:54 PM said
Wow, lots of good news in this update, Arantor. I really appreciate your ability to give us details without bogging us down, or talking over our heads.

Many "Thanks!" to Arantor, to all the Devs, and the whole SMF Team for continuing their wonderful work on SMF. Great Job~!

It's good to see Arantor on the SMF Team. :D

+99999999999~
TomW on November 05, 2013, 11:24:09 PM said
I really love the changes!  Thanks to the entire SMF team.
lurkalot on November 06, 2013, 03:27:56 PM said

As ever, anyone who checks our Github will probably have already seen some of the changes we've done - for those who haven't, https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1 is where it's all happening.


Looks really nice.  (now for this weeks dumb question) Am I right in assuming we can download those files from Github, and update our test installs of 2.1?  Though I tried it, and my test install works (with errors) I haven't a clue how to use Github to be honest.  :-[ 
Arantor on November 06, 2013, 03:30:23 PM said
Sure you can download it from there and run the large upgrade (you'll find the upgrade PHP and SQL files in the other/ folder), which should hopefully ensure you have all the tables and whatnot that you will need.
lurkalot on November 06, 2013, 03:41:21 PM said
Sure you can download it from there and run the large upgrade (you'll find the upgrade PHP and SQL files in the other/ folder), which should hopefully ensure you have all the tables and whatnot that you will need.

Thanks, that's the files I was missing, I had just the ones in the zip.  :-[ How do you download the files in the "other" folder please?
Illori on November 06, 2013, 03:44:07 PM said
http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Contributing_to_SMF#Missing_files
Arantor on November 06, 2013, 03:45:59 PM said
If you download the zip, you will have the other folder in it...
Kindred on November 06, 2013, 03:48:31 PM said
the other folder is there....      it's part of the standard git package...    you just don't expect to see it and so skip over it the first (few) time(s)
(ok, well, at least I did -- DOH!))
lurkalot on November 06, 2013, 04:00:34 PM said
If you download the zip, you will have the other folder in it...

the other folder is there....      it's part of the standard git package...    you just don't expect to see it and so skip over it the first (few) time(s)
(ok, well, at least I did -- DOH!))

Did I mention I need to visit Specsavers.  Thanks guys.  I even looked in there again before I asked, and missed it.  I'm off to try it out.
BigMike on November 06, 2013, 05:54:47 PM said
The new approach to the Admin Center looks really, really great!
Akyhne on November 06, 2013, 10:08:00 PM said
Good you removed one of the menu bars.
Sad you removed the wrong one!
Burke ♞ Knight on November 06, 2013, 10:11:58 PM said
* BurkeKnight wonders about the usefulness of that post.
Arantor on November 06, 2013, 10:17:17 PM said
Good you removed one of the menu bars.
Sad you removed the wrong one!

And if you paid attention you'd understand that I didn't merely remove it, I replaced it with something else.
Burke ♞ Knight on November 06, 2013, 10:18:16 PM said
Arantor, do remember our mantra:

Don't feed the trolls.
Akyhne on November 06, 2013, 10:21:36 PM said
I just don't like the top menu introduced in SMF 2.0.
It's really as simple as that.
Arantor on November 06, 2013, 10:23:20 PM said
And I'm sorry but it isn't going away, especially because of the issues that have always been with the sidebar for the last ten years which were only made vastly worse in SMF 2.0 (like a security hole at one point that has since been fixed)

Fortunately an alternative was added in place of the sidebar menu.
Akyhne on November 06, 2013, 10:25:49 PM said
Arantor, do remember our mantra:

Don't feed the trolls.
There's really no reason to offend me, is there?!
4Kstore on November 07, 2013, 01:46:56 AM said
Glad to read this news, I hope can put my hands in this new version of smf and keep making mods for 2.1 :) ( I hope last mods keep working)
maxg on November 07, 2013, 03:41:51 PM said
Sorry for the late response, busy refreshing my skills... But I got to say glad to see things are moving along, please don't get stuck on someone's like or dislike.. I see things are looking much better and the Team it again working hard, to get something meaningful done, so me be happy camper and thanks very much for all you do!

Looks like most are pleased anyway.... so there you go>>!
Quote
$progress='moving forward'  if,  elseif, else > echo "Hey great job!";
Code: [Select]
<?php
        $items 
'6';
        if (
$items '6') {
          echo 
'You get it done'; }
        elseif (
$items == 1) {
        echo 
"sorry, not so fast"; }
        else  {
        echo 
'You did a great job!'; }
      
?>

regards,
Maxx 
Gargoyle on November 07, 2013, 07:56:03 PM said
But I got to say glad to see things are moving along, please don't get stuck on someone's like or dislike..

Agreed x2
Arantor on November 07, 2013, 08:09:07 PM said
I'm not stuck on anyone's like or dislike. I'll listen to the commentary, sure, and I'll try and take it on board but ultimately I'm building what I think SMF needs and going from there.
maxg on November 08, 2013, 08:25:16 AM said
I know you will not get stuck on that, could have worded it differently ... I just wanted to say your doing great :) and moving on and kinda speaking in general to those that can not be pleased LOL!

regards,
Maxx
maxg on November 10, 2013, 09:50:23 AM said
Spent a little time Yesterday with the 2.1 alpha 1 and did a fresh install. So far I'm very much liking what I see, the install painless and fast, I like the menu better fast roll down and the Admin section is looking good, should be easier for folks to find their way around :) Gonna start working once again on doing themes from scratch to see how that goes, have done so in the past and went well so hopefully the same. Note I did notice and I like!!! that you will get an error message if the theme is not compatible with the current version... this will keep you from a mess if the theme does not work with the System :) also notice better security, for moderators and admins... Cool!

I would recommend that you disable all mods and and custom themes before upgrade ( just me) and if you do a fresh install, I would not try to overwrite old tables, I would do a fresh Database:)

and as mentioned above don't forget the "other" ( folder) for install and upgrade file!

There are a few issues, in saving theme edits after current theme edits, I sent this to the DEV team!:)

regards,
Maxx

SoLoGHoST on November 10, 2013, 06:08:36 PM said
Ok, I am slacking a bit on the download of the new 2.1 here.  I'll hopefully get around to seeing it before it gets released... hehe.
Arantor on November 10, 2013, 06:12:36 PM said
@maxg: I did see your PMs, sorry I didn't reply before, just been very busy and not gotten through them all.

@SoLoGHoST: and already there's been new stuff since I wrote this post ;)
maxg on November 10, 2013, 07:59:00 PM said
Arantor,

The link I sent you to the 2 files of concern, does fix the errors and It will now work if you save the current theme edit changes 2 times. ( hope that helps!)

And thanks for thee reply... appreciate all you guys are doing here.. Stay Good my friend!

regards,
Maxx
SoLoGHoST on November 10, 2013, 10:01:14 PM said
Just a thought, and I know SMF is a forum software, not a CMS.  But I always felt limited by topics, as if they just always look the same, always have the same content fields, with very little room for improvement, other than a mod to install that can advance it a bit.  But there was never any real simple solution built into SMF for manipulating how boards are shown, how topics get displayed, and how fields within posts are managed (unmanaged I mean to say).  Would be nice if the Admin had the ability to display topics as articles, or maybe as just a simple webpage.  I suppose this is getting into a CMS type of thinking, but maybe it's time for SMF to grow into something bigger, god knows it has tried.

And I'm sure with Arantor on the Dev. Team, we can expect great things for SMF!
Arantor on November 10, 2013, 10:07:44 PM said
That is not going to happen any time soon. There really is not a lot you can do with boards and topics without making them not boards and topics, SMF is geared towards being a *forum* not a generic CMS.

The thing is, you need articles to do things differently to topics, they have different characteristics, different approaches, different needs for metadata and so on - it's not just presentation but experience, and trying to create a one size fits all approach to that is actually doing them a disservice.

That isn't to say I don't have answers for this stuff, because I do. It just doesn't involve trying to make topics into something they're not.
SoLoGHoST on November 10, 2013, 11:36:02 PM said
Well, I think the nuts and bolts of how this would be is to create fields and than allow those fields to be manipulated via code, and/or even packaged up and installed in SMF.  Fields that would add to the already known fields of what topics are:  Title, Body, Attachment, Avatar, Signature, Extra Info., etc.  These fields could than be manipulated to show however the Admin wants them to be shown, or not shown.  This would than expand SMF into something even bigger, making it possible to attach, say fancybox Field, or Like Button Field (which I believe is now default in SMF 2.1 as I hear, or an option already atleast), or any field anyone can think of that would be suitable for topics.  So, like, I haven't seen SMF 2.1 yet, so maybe I'm speaking prematurely here.

In any case, I'm not the one in charge anyways.  I'm sure that SMF will be everything that everyone here has grown to love and more!
Arantor on November 10, 2013, 11:48:59 PM said
No. I will only say this for the ... third? ... time: I am not going down this road. Trying to make a one-size-fits-all solution is terrible, I mean did you ever look at the mess WP is under the hood? That's in no small part because you can define arbitrary fields per content and have them displayed.

Have the topics be *topics* and handle proper meta data for them. Articles need different things to forum topics, as do downloads, gallery items, and many other things.
SoLoGHoST on November 11, 2013, 12:23:15 AM said
Ok, so WP was never exactly supposed to be a CMS, it is a Blog, period!  This is why it's a ton of mess under the hood.  And probably why you are right in your thinking here as well.  SMF is a Forum, not a CMS, much like WP is not a CMS (though it somehow sneaked it's way into a CMS, which is why it's terrible).  Don't get me wrong, WP is a great Blogging Platform, but that's it!  Trying to make it into something it's not only causes huge headaches!
SoLoGHoST on November 11, 2013, 03:23:32 AM said
Hey Bloc, exactly my thoughts.  My thinking on this may be influenced, partly, from the Drupal CMS, which I have been dabbling in for quite some time now.  The idea is to break everything into pieces that can be built onto.  Trying to get as generic/general as possible requires taking many many steps backwards.  I kind of admire the way Drupal handles Nodes, Taxonomy, Structuring of Content, url aliases, and even blocks, that when coupled with the Views Module (which is basically 1 huge SQL Query that you create with a WYSIWYG UI via Views UI) just blows your mind of the possibilities, 95%+ CMS, 5%- coding.  I've seen full Drupal sites built with absolutely no coding whatsoever.  Here's a good example of a site I recently took part in building, for work, with Drupal:  http://ofn.org  This entire site was literally built in just a weekend.  However Content for the site was another story, that took several weeks to get all of the content for it together from the old site and it's still not finished with content.
margarett on November 11, 2013, 04:06:40 AM said
I guess that's what was intended with smCore.

Anyway, despite the "easiness", a huge query is hardly most efficient than several smallest, well thought, queries. And SMF is usually more performant at this level...
SoLoGHoST on November 11, 2013, 04:30:47 AM said
Yeah, I definitely agree that SMF handles the database way better than most platforms that I have ever used.  This is 1 drawback in Drupal since, for each Module that loads on a page, we are talking about .8 tenths of a second of load time.  There are caches you can put into place that will help with this as well as faster loading, but the database gets hit too much.  If I output db queries, I can see about 10 times more than SMF.  But SMF is not a CMS either.  So I don't think you can compare SMF to Drupal exactly.  Not trying to go into that cause that would be like comparing Apples to Oranges.  Drupal could definitely improve more ofcourse, especially with the database.
maxg on November 11, 2013, 09:41:34 AM said
I in reality feel that, as mentioned many times in the past, I have tried most all forum and CMS systems, even some paid and still I insist that SMF is the Best of all and should remain on it's current path!

The other stuff Like Blog, galleries, article pages and shouts and gadgets (if you will!) are being well represented By Great Folks like Bloc and his Protendo and Wedge, Bloc In my opinion is doing a fantastic Job of bring forward, what can and can not or should not be done with the SMF system, yet keeping it very nice and fast and clean looking as well as user friendly. A forum is a forum period. and most all of them will look and feel basically the same!

The other stuff, a few Like Bloc are already working hard on and showing me great progress.
I started making themes for WP and Drupal and other CMS systems and Pete hit the nail the first time with WP and Bloc the second with Drupal, this system are a mess so to speak in trying to start working with ( JMHO), and unless we want to get off track and delay SMF any more - possible a few years LOL, I 'd stick to guns gentlemen and keep up the great job.

I'm liking it! :)
Maxx
Akyhne on November 11, 2013, 10:38:49 AM said
Just a thought, and I know SMF is a forum software, not a CMS.  But I always felt limited by topics, as if they just always look the same, always have the same content fields, with very little room for improvement, other than a mod to install that can advance it a bit.  But there was never any real simple solution built into SMF for manipulating how boards are shown, how topics get displayed, and how fields within posts are managed (unmanaged I mean to say).  Would be nice if the Admin had the ability to display topics as articles, or maybe as just a simple webpage.  I suppose this is getting into a CMS type of thinking, but maybe it's time for SMF to grow into something bigger, god knows it has tried.

And I'm sure with Arantor on the Dev. Team, we can expect great things for SMF!
You can partly achieve this by having another theme for a specific board.
SwedishMarch1964 on November 11, 2013, 10:42:53 AM said
Thanks for the heads up!  :)
Akyhne on November 11, 2013, 11:25:08 AM said
What about smartphone/pad/tablet detection with proper theme. Will this be implemented into SMF 2.1?
Arantor on November 11, 2013, 11:27:53 AM said
Sadly, I just don't see that happening. Bear in mind I only joined the dev team a few weeks ago and already there's been a massive amount of change but a complete mobile environment is only going to delay SMF 2.1 even more. As it is, I'm working on a major feature for SMF 2.1 that's already delayed it more than I wanted it to be delayed and this suggestion will put it back by probably another 6 months.
Akyhne on November 11, 2013, 12:30:35 PM said
I understand. But maybe you could do the detection system and some other can pick up on a proper theme.
Arantor on November 11, 2013, 12:40:44 PM said
Why would we do that, though? There's no point us adding something that we're not using in the core.
emanuele on November 11, 2013, 02:40:29 PM said
Actually mobile detection is already in core (see Class-BrowserDetect.php). ;)
Arantor on November 11, 2013, 02:42:00 PM said
I knew there was browser detection but I didn't realise it covered mobile (mostly because there's no need for such in the core the rest of the time) - SMF is a huge code base ;)
maxg on November 11, 2013, 02:58:45 PM said
sorry I late, try to study more the web code!

A side from what's mentioned above on detection:

I also did some testing on the responsiveness of the 2.1 alpha 1 ; default, and it appears to be working real nice thus far. looks like the Mobile and various Browsers should pretty much be satisfied for now.

Note that themers can select and or change menus to fit their needs and long as they coded responsive ( I think) at least I tested them on the older SMF 2.0.5 version. I think bloc has been working this also for some time now :)

In short I feel the Dev's need not be concerned any more with this for now Moving On>>! JMO

regards,
Maxx
emanuele on November 11, 2013, 07:17:21 PM said
I knew there was browser detection but I didn't realise it covered mobile (mostly because there's no need for such in the core the rest of the time)
Well, when 2.1 started the mobile theme was part of the goals, there *was* a reason to have mobile detection. :P

SMF is a huge code base ;)
I know. O:-)
Arantor on November 11, 2013, 07:23:10 PM said
Ahhh, I see. There's still a lot for me to catch up with in the last couple of years' work...
Akyhne on November 11, 2013, 07:34:17 PM said
So the code is there, it's just not used for mobile detection?
Arantor on November 11, 2013, 07:35:50 PM said
So it would appear. I'm still trying to get up to speed on some things (a few weeks is not nearly long enough to pick up all the nuances of everything that's changed in 2 years)

But there's no mobile theme that I'm aware of, which does make it somewhat redundant.
Akyhne on November 11, 2013, 07:48:21 PM said
Hmm, the ?wap2 still Works in 2.1. But the link isn't anywhere in the new theme.
margarett on November 11, 2013, 07:58:45 PM said
Nop, the link was removed from the footer, but index.php still works with it:
Code: [Select]
// Determine if this is using WAP, WAP2, or imode.  Technically, we should check that wap comes before application/xhtml or text/html, but this doesn't work in practice as much as it should.
if (isset($_REQUEST['wap']) || isset($_REQUEST['wap2']) || isset($_REQUEST['imode']))
unset($_SESSION['nowap']);
elseif (isset($_REQUEST['nowap']))
$_SESSION['nowap'] = true;
elseif (!isset($_SESSION['nowap']))
{
if (isset($_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT']) && strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT'], 'application/vnd.wap.xhtml+xml') !== false)
$_REQUEST['wap2'] = 1;
elseif (isset($_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT']) && strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT'], 'text/vnd.wap.wml') !== false)
{
if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'], 'DoCoMo/') !== false || strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'], 'portalmmm/') !== false)
$_REQUEST['imode'] = 1;
else
$_REQUEST['wap'] = 1;
}
}

And there is yet a Wireless.template.php so yes, it still works (probably won't last much longer...)
Akyhne on November 11, 2013, 08:02:57 PM said
Ok :)
bloc on November 12, 2013, 01:45:23 PM said
I find it a bit amusing that the lead developer don't know what user agents are detected or not lol..its even a check for android/iphone in SMF 2.04, and has been for a quite a while. That it hasn't been used is of course due to no-one on the SMF team actually works with themes and therefore could not care less about it...or so it would seem. ::)
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 01:51:14 PM said
Funny, last I checked my badge and title did not say lead developer.

That and trying to pick up on the *vast* number of changes between 2.0 and 2.1 in a few weeks... I wonder if you would be able to do the same with all the changes that have happened.

You'll forgive me if I don't remember every change that occurs across a 130k line code base.
bloc on November 12, 2013, 02:28:09 PM said
Well, don't speak with such certainty about it then. :)

I've been following SMF code base for quite some years, I don't know all of it, BUT, I follow it quite easy because its a structure I have looked at and changed numerous times. You can't tell me you haven't done the same working on Wedge? 2.1 might be different..but its not THAT different.

But hey, its ok. You don't know everything, and neither does the rest of us. :D
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 02:38:57 PM said
I didn't, actually. I said a full mobile environment is not going to happen, and that I didn't see us adding something to the core we weren't using... I still don't see why we have browser detection that detects mobile browsers when we don't seem to be doing anything with them.

I follow the code better than most, but the problem is I don't remember every little detail everywhere in the codebase.

And yes, of course I forgot how Wedge's codebase worked on occasion, so much of it changed over the three years that I would forget things a few weeks after they were written, especially if they got rewritten more than once.

The thing is, there is a surprising amount of difference in the details - the generalities are easy to remember, but the specifics - like what browsers are detected - is a little harder to remember ;)

I don't know everything, nor do I claim to. I have said this on more than one occasion that SMF's code is simply too big for any one person to know every single detail about it, and yes, it's that I'm going to forget details.

On the other hand I do not appreciate the mispresentation that I'm SMF's lead developer (because I'm not) and the assertion that I might not be up to such a job because a piece of code I've never seen doesn't operate exactly how I was under the logical impression it might.
Akyhne on November 12, 2013, 02:44:14 PM said
I didn't, actually. I said a full mobile environment is not going to happen, and that I didn't see us adding something to the core we weren't using...
... which is a bit sad as mobile/tablet themes or apps to popular online software is very asked for as well as being part of most other forum software.
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 02:44:40 PM said
Which would you rather have, an update in the next six months or wait another year?

The more people add in, the more everyone has to wait for the release.
vbgamer45 on November 12, 2013, 02:45:09 PM said
Six Months faster updates better.
Akyhne on November 12, 2013, 02:45:56 PM said
I can make a proper mobile theme in a week or two.
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 02:48:04 PM said
Then please do so, we'll be happy to review it as a contribution.
Ricky. on November 12, 2013, 02:50:45 PM said
I can make a proper mobile theme in a week or two.
Looking forward for it , however, there are also attempts to make responsive theme , that can also serve our purpose to certain extent as now a days  you know that  tablet may have better resolution than your laptop .
Kindred on November 12, 2013, 03:38:16 PM said
exactly.

2.1 is on Github!

If you make a mobile theme and it meets the coding criteria, we'd be happy to have it available for 2.1 (maybe even distributed with it)
lurkalot on November 12, 2013, 04:22:38 PM said
Looking really good guys, well done.  Not sure about the profile link at the top of the page, but I'll get used to it. :)

By the way, there's a icon missing Themes/default/images/icons/stats_info_hd.png  ;)
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 04:28:05 PM said
The profile link at the top? You're keeping on top of things because I only changed that last night!

A WIP screenshot from last night - that's since been tweaked, note - is attached.
lurkalot on November 12, 2013, 04:37:49 PM said
The profile link at the top? You're keeping on top of things because I only changed that last night!

A WIP screenshot from last night - that's since been tweaked, note - is attached.

I sure am, got to see what you're up to you know. ;)  Icon missing from Profile > Show Stats.  stats_info_hd.png
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 04:39:30 PM said
Yeah, I did see that, haven't yet found the appropriate larger image for it yet, thanks for the heads-up :)
Kindred on November 12, 2013, 04:49:16 PM said
need to grab  a new copy for the test site....   Did Oldies fix the upgrade issue with the profile?
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 04:50:39 PM said
I think he's fixed it locally, not sure he's committed the updated version but I know he's making changes in the upgrader, just as I have recently (for the changes in permissions around profiles)
Akyhne on November 12, 2013, 06:45:05 PM said
I can make a proper mobile theme in a week or two.
Looking forward for it , however, there are also attempts to make responsive theme , that can also serve our purpose to certain extent as now a days  you know that  tablet may have better resolution than your laptop .
You mean adding mobile support to the Default theme?
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 06:47:02 PM said
Yup. You said you could do it in a week or two, we'd love to see it.
Akyhne on November 12, 2013, 06:53:31 PM said
Wouldn't it clutter up to much the Default theme, instead of making a separate theme?
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 06:54:20 PM said
Well, you're the theme expert, right? You tell us how it should be ;)
Gargoyle on November 12, 2013, 07:01:11 PM said
Make a separate responsive theme for mobile. That way when mobile is detected that theme could be loaded.

Just a suggestion... I'd also suggest using the jquery mobile set up. Seems to streamline a LOT of things for mobile devices.

Once again only suggestions.. I look forward to seeing your work!
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 07:10:25 PM said
The thing about responsive is that by definition it isn't a separate theme. The whole point is that you create a single theme that is adaptable to different sizes, which isn't really feasible for all the different kinds of content we have and the different presentations of that content.

A dedicated mobile theme on the other hand is a different story (especially given how much has to be recreated for them, doubly so if you want to cover moderation or admin; note neither of these is properly supported even in the old WAP/iMode/WAP2 for this very reason), but even the current options for this have issues (other than being paid-for)
JBlaze on November 12, 2013, 07:35:15 PM said
If you want to see how a proper responsive framework is done, check out Twitter Bootstrap.
maxg on November 12, 2013, 07:44:28 PM said
The real trick will be.... "the Portal and Mods, they will not be in any theme, so unless your gonna go with the Forum only, you will need to find a way around the other stuff, this is in my opinion why it points less at this point of working on this into a theme! Now forks on the other hand are a different thing! I think it good to wish and think , but I also feel it's best to keep on moving like Arantor and some other wish to.

If I set my theme to 80 or 90 percent and no portal mod it shows in most mobile devices, the only issue maybe the menu and I'm working on one these, but not in a rush. Rather than getting into big changes, that set back the lease as mentioned above I rather see what here get or be rightly done :) We are not working with WP or a Blog, that just goes on to an endless scroll... It's a forum!

regards,
Maxx
maxg on November 12, 2013, 07:51:51 PM said
The real trick will be.... "the Portal and Mods, they will not be in any theme, so unless your gonna go with the Forum only, you will need to find a way around the other stuff, this is in my opinion why it points less at this point of working on this into a theme! Now forks on the other hand are a different thing! I think it good to wish and think , but I also feel it's best to keep on moving like Arantor and some other wish to.

If I set my theme to 80 or 90 percent and no portal mod it shows in most mobile devices, the only issue maybe the menu and I'm working on one these, but not in a rush. Rather than getting into big changes, that set back the lease as mentioned above I rather see what here get or be rightly done :) We are not working with WP or a Blog, that just goes on to an endless scroll... It's a forum!

regards,
Maxx

Yes:) I have done at least 40 HTML5 and WP (CMS) responsive themes just playing around and am aware of how they work, but this not the same thing by any means... and I and some other are working on responsive stuff for SMF on our own, but as above mentioned the portal.??

regards,
Maxx
SoLoGHoST on November 12, 2013, 09:36:18 PM said
Ok, well trying to install SMF 2.1 and getting "Settings_bak.php" file could not be found error.  What is the deal with this file anyways?  This just doesn't make any sense.  Also, why does it want to connect to my ftp now?  This was never a part of the installer before, so how come it is now?  Strange!
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 09:37:24 PM said
Well... it's a backup of the main Settings.php file. It's been a part of SMF for the last decade, and the installer should be able to handle it just fine... like it always has.

Both the Settings and its backup are in the other/ directory.
SoLoGHoST on November 12, 2013, 09:41:02 PM said
Ok, and well, I took everything out of the /other directory and placed it in the root directory as I believe I'm supposed to do right?  So, there was no Settings_bak.php file in there that I've seen.

Also, how come the installer wants to know my FTP Server information now?  What is the reasoning behind this?
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 09:41:57 PM said
The installer should generally create it, if it can't it will ask for FTP details because the folder isn't writable...
SoLoGHoST on November 12, 2013, 09:46:05 PM said
hmmmm, so I've 755'd the entire root directory and all sub-directories, so strange as it seems, but now I'm getting 403 Forbidden error... argg!  Guess I need to start all over again...lol and low and behold, doope, there's the Settings_bak.php file that was the only file that was not copied to the root...lol, how'd that appear?
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 09:48:03 PM said
Odd, very odd. If 755 causes permission issues, I dread to think what your server is configured as.
Akyhne on November 12, 2013, 09:59:07 PM said
A bug.

When making a copy of Default theme,  [actual_images_url] => /home/www/blabla and not http://www.blabla
Same problem with [images_url]
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 10:01:10 PM said
Please report any bugs on Github, with full details of how to reproduce if possible.
SoLoGHoST on November 12, 2013, 10:03:51 PM said
Ok, so, noticing some problems right off the bat here with the install.  1 Whatever is supposed to be up top on install.php doesn't show (<div class="news normaltext"></div>).  2, when going to step 2, and step 3 of install (after putting in proper information), I get white page after hitting Continue button, and after getting to Step 3, I'm unable to see step 3's page and not able to finish installation.  Again, this could be something wrong on my end of things, but this is my first experience so far with SMF 2.1 and just thought I'd share this.  Not able to go to install.php since it tells me that SMF is already installed, and trying to go to my actual index.php page on that site produces an empty white page.  So, the last thing I did was put in my database information and click on next and got an empty white page and am unable to finish installation because of white page and empty white page on actual index.php.  Going to install.php again gives me SMF is already installed and if I continue than I will need to put in the same information again for database.

Anyways, I give up!
Akyhne on November 12, 2013, 10:07:34 PM said
Please report any bugs on Github, with full details of how to reproduce if possible.
Well, it's when you make the copy that the wrong path is enabled. You can just make a copy of the Default. When viewing the new theme's settings (paths), they are wrong for the copied one.
Arantor on November 12, 2013, 10:12:38 PM said
Please report any bugs on Github, with full details of how to reproduce if possible.